9/11 Truthers do not tire. They diligently maintain their own laws of nature independent of those known to scientists and engineers. Rather than try to make a conspiracy theory that agrees with the established laws of nature, Truthers maintain natural laws that fit their theories. Much of Truther lore is built around claimed properties of steel and thermite that contradict established knowledge.
Thermite is a mixture of aluminum powder with a metal oxide, typically iron oxide. It burns very hot and the iron in the iron oxide is freed as molten iron, so it is useful for welding iron and steel. It’s possible to use thermite to cut a steel beam, but it is not known to have ever been used in a controlled demolition. Because it is difficult to ignite reliably and burns relatively slowly, it’s not suitable to the precise timing requirements of a controlled demolition. Also, the liquid metal flows downhill, so at best it would be extremely difficult to cut any but a horizontal member.
Truthers claim the World Trade Center buildings were brought down by explosives. They say that explains explosive sounds, puffs of smoke or dust from floors below the WTC 1 & 2 collapse, and the supposed extra energy needed to pulverize concrete. They claim the explosive used was thermite, because the beams in the wreckage were cut cleanly, there were pools of molten metal in the wreckage that lasted for weeks after the collapse, and various components of thermite were discovered in the dust from the collapse.
A fundamental problem with that theory is that thermite is not an explosive. Truthers show a video of a small amount of thermite being set off. It takes a noticeable fraction of a second to burn which they proclaim to be an explosion. Explosives actually operate in milliseconds and always produce a shock wave, the sound of the explosion. Truther thermite, as with all thermite, does not explode and does not produce a shock wave.
Steel used in construction is tempered to increase its strength. Tempering involves heating the steel and than rapidly cooling it by, for example, quenching it in oil. This increases the strenght of the steel by up to a factor of ten, but it also makes it brittle. adding trace elements and controlling the quench rate allows materials specialists to adjust the properties of the steel.
A problem with tempered steel is that relatively low heat can take out the temper and thus make the steel lose its extra strength. Safety standards adopted long before 9/11 require that the steel be insulated so that it will not reach 1000 F in two hours of heating by a fire. Overseas, the standard is 700 F. Two hours is figured to be enough time for the fire department to arrive and put out the fire, or for the building’s sprinkler system to do the job.
Steel was traditionally insulated by embedding it in concrete, but in modern buildings an insulating material is used to coat the steel. In the Twin Towers attacks, the airplane impacts removed much of the applied insulation, allowing the steel to heat quickly.
Truthers invariably claim that steel only loses its strength when it melts. If that were true, then the long-established safety standards would be ridiculous. Because steel doesn’t melt until 2500 F, there would be no reason to try to keep the steel below 1000 F. Truthers could attempt to overthrow existing knowledge by experimentally demonstrating that steel does not lose strength short of melting, but they make no attempt to do so, nor do they cite any supporting evidence for their new theory.
Tempered steel is brittle, so when it is overstressed, say by a collapsing building, it snaps in sharp breaks. Truthers are enamored of the idea of “twisted wreckage” so they cannot understand how sharp breaks could occur except by cutting with thermite. Since thermite melts the steel, it actually wouldn’t make a very sharp break, especially not on a vertical member where the liquid metal flows downhill.
The brittle nature of tempered steel is also consistent with the structures collapsing quickly. Truthers have an image of steel being ductile and springy, so the metal would bend rather slowly and absorb energy in the process. Brittle materials don’t do that. Glass is brittle, so windows break quickly, not slowly.
Finally, Truthers point to pools of liquid metal that lasted up to three weeks after the building collapse. They claim this proves that thermite was involved, because only thermite can melt steel. Let’s suppose for a moment that metal was steel and that thermite melted it. So how did it stay melted for three weeks? When thermite is used for welding, the liquid iron solidifies quickly. The hotter the material relative to its surroundings, the faster it cools. This true for hot soup or hot steel.
The only way to keep something hot is to keep adding heat. Truther thermite, however, it claimed to have the property of melting steel in such a way that it stays melted, a violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Whatever the molten metal was, it had to be kept liquid by heat generated from the combustible materials in the rubble. The likely explanation is a natural furnace effect.
How about thermite components in the dust and debris? Thermite is aluminum with some metal oxide. Sometimes Truthers point to iron oxide as proof of thermite, other times it is manganese or any of a shelf of compounds that might be in thermite. The buildings contained tons of iron, but also tons of aluminum and other metals. It would be odd if there were not a wide assortment of materials in the dust and debris. Much of it is indeed unexplained in terms of its exact origins and means of generation in the disaster. No one other than Truthers particularly cares about such details.
Truthers especially point to claimed larger quantities of unburned thermite in the dust. That’s inconsistent with the separate claim that a way was found to reliably ignite thermite and to get it to explode. Try to imagine, say, an explosion caused by dynamite in which there were large quantities of unexploded dynamite left in the debris. That’s not going to happen.
How do Truthers deal with all the conventional knowledge about thermite, steel, and the rest? One way would be to attack the basis of the knowledge. They could try to show or argue that steel does not lose its strength at anything below the melting point, that thermite can produce and explosive shock wave, and so forth. That’s the route used by legitimate scientific dissent. Einstein proposed experiments that ultimately confirmed his theory over classical physics. Those opposed to CO2 global warming theory point to specific deficiencies in the theory, like the earth not warming for the past decade despite increasing CO2. That’s how the game of scientific dissent is properly played.
Truthers don’t attempt to square theory with observation. They say that since no building had ever collapsed like the World Trade Center buildings, conspiracy must be the answer. The fact that their theory doesn’t agree with established laws of nature doesn’t matter, because they know it must have been a conspiracy. Explanations using the established laws of nature must be false, because those explanations do not lead to the conclusion that they know to be correct.
Aside from being Dark Ages mentality, such thinking means that the new investigation that Truthers demand would be pointless. Investigations attempt to explain events in terms of an established base of knowledge. Explanations that involve magical elements contrary to laws of nature are not explanations at all. They already have magical explanations, so it would be pointless to seek new magic.
Read the article from the scientists who found nano thermite in the dust samples at http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM or questions about the collapse at http://ae911truth.org. You don’t mention that scientific paper. You also don’t even mention nano thermite which means you are leaving out 2 major facts, one that a team of scientists has found nano-thermite and two, that nano thermite is not plain ordinary thermite and acts differently. That is a type of fallacious argument known as special pleading (leaving out critical evidence in order to bolster your version of the facts). I can only presume you’ve done that on purpose, because if you had done even minimal investigation of 911 truth you would have been bombarded by the word nano and by the announcement of the scientific paper. NIST, the government organization that said they didn’t test for explosives in the rubble (a violation of the law by the way) are coincidentally major experts on nano-thermite. See http://911review.com/articles/ryan/nist_thermite_connection.html So, your subtitle, “A careful look at issues” is laughable.
— Jerrod Soldier · Nov 23, 11:00 AM · #
There being countless Truther claims, it is not possible for me to go through them all in one post or even a few posts. An invariable characteristic of Truther logic is that they always come up with new theories and never modify there old theories, no matter how thoroughly their old theories are disproved. Truthers also never answer questions about there theories, they only repeat their claims. For example, in the post I asked why there would be tons of unburned thermite in the dust? You didn’t take the opportunity to answer that.
The claimed nanothermite is just aluminum and iron oxide particles. It’s pretty clear why there ought to be aluminum and iron residues in the dust. I don’t know why they are in fine particles, and I don’t think it worthwhile trying to track down.
Bringing a building down by controlled demolition requires elaborate preparation, supposedly done in building where 18,000 people worked. Either no one notice or there we thousands of people involved in the conspiracy. Neither alternative is plausible, so the whole demolition theory is not plausible. That’s why no one takes it seriously.
— Roy Latham · Nov 23, 12:35 PM · #
Controlled demolition – masterpiece – is the ONLY way possible to explain what you see on the video footage – rapid onset of collapse, speed of close to free fall, pulverizing of 110 floors per second, uniform typical fashion of collapse for all 3 buildings.
Office fires do not melt steel, and pools of molten steel.
The metal particles found in the dust were spherules, spheres, they ONLY form in molten state conditions.
ALL your arguments were addressed, explained by at least Prof Jones, Harrit, and can therefore be safely called as completely refuted.
http://911UnitedWeInvestigate.blogspot.com
— Petr Buben · Nov 23, 06:42 PM · #
You didn’t read my post, did you? Point me to the exact location on a truther site where it explains why long-pre-existing safety regulations say steel should not be allowed to reach 1000F, while truthers claim it doesn’t lose strength until it melts. Point me to the exact location where truthers explain why the penthouse moved before the collapse. I went to the link you cited, and it is incoherent ranting, not merely non-responsive.
— Roy Latham · Nov 23, 07:06 PM · #
1. science facts and 9/11 Truth controlled demolition movement position on steel and temperature is as follows:
a) Steel cannot melt as a result of office or airplane fuel fires. Yet there was a lot of molten steel found on the site.
b) Steel can significantly weaken, up to the point of failure, above 500F, therefore in the reach of fires in WTC.
HOWEVER, you would have seen random, localized failures, topovers, stumbling of blocks of towers. NOT – uniform, sudden, total collapse and pulverization at 110 floors per second. !!
In fact, what we have seen on the footage, is a controlled demolition.
2. Penthouse was pulverized and collapsed onto the rest of a tower – instead of falling in the path of lowest resistance – in the air – by the help of nanothermite masterpiece controlled demolition.
3. The best science sites with all the facts of controlled demolition are
http://ae911truth.org – http://stj911.org – http://journalof911studies.com
Portals are http://911blogger.com and http://911truth.org
4.
Lastly, I did forget to reply to your post – regarding installation of tons of explosive in preparation of attacks.
This installation is not only plausible, but perfectly possible.
People who carried tons of material in boxes never knew, what they are doing.
People who installed some wires, equipment, never knew what it was for.
Towers experienced complete repair power downs prior to attacks.
The director of security company of WTC was Marvin Bush, brother of never elected president.
So much for research facts.
Now we need independent investigation, who did what, how, who knew what.
Lets start with who had, and how they installed tons of nanothermite.
http://twitter.com/911news
http://friendfeed.com/911truth
I might assume you, and many people, will have figured out inside, domestic and/or foreign complicity, the question now is, can it be told?
Will it hurt the country? It is also psychologically very difficult to admit this all truth and reality —-
9/11 is an inside operation controlled demolition.
— Petr Buben · Nov 24, 10:49 PM · #
WTC 1 & 2 failed by entirely different mechanisms then WTC 7. In WTC 1 & 2, the heat heat from burning jet fuel was concentrated near the floors where the aircraft hit, so the hat trusses were weakened on those floors and ultimately failed. The weight of the floors above the failure point caused the progressive collapse from the top down. Tempered steel is brittle, so the collapse is rapid.
WTC 7 failed by the fire causing the steel to expand, ultimately causing column 79 to fail by buckling. This happen due to the odd construction of the building, which I think can fairly be called a design error. That caused the penthouse to move towards the interior of the building before the apparent collapse from the lower floors. I don’t understand what you were trying to say about the penthouse, but if there were a controlled demolition at the base, the penthouse would not have moved first.
Your comments about random failures due to fire in WTC 7 indicates you have not read the NIST report on WTC 7, which explains the collapse due to buckling, not weakening of the steel.
NIST examined the possibility of explosives, and ruled it out because a shock wave from explosives would have shattered the glass in a pattern different from that observed, and would have also been much louder than was recorded.
The problem with using thermite is not carrying it into the building, it is the preparation required to place it in contact with the steel. Truthers claim it was used to cut all the steel into short lengths, which would require many hundreds of applications to the steel, none of which were noticed by the 4000 occupants of WTC 7.
I have been though many of the Truther sites. They pay no attention to the established properties of materials, and they do not show the slightest awareness of what the NIST reports actually say as they make attempts to repute the reports. They are wildly incoherent, making it impossible to follow specific points. I decline invitations to sort through the heaps of incoherent contradictions to build the Truther case for them.
I have been debating Truthers on debate.org. You are welcome to challenge me to a point-by-point discussion if you would like to press the issues.
— Roy Latham · Nov 24, 11:36 PM · #
Hey Roy, I would just like to thank you for using logic and reason to combat these ridiculous conspiracy claims. My own cousin, whom I consider to be a logical and smart man, has recently been swayed by the truther idiocy. It’s been very frustrating trying to get him to see how preposterous the whole idea is, but he just won’t drop it. Anyways thanks for providing good information to back my argument
— Kevin Beck · May 3, 11:22 AM · #
Looks like it’s been awhile since anyone posted on here, so my comment will probably go ignored, but thank you, Mr. Latham, for applying logic to the conspiracy theories. I believe that conspiracy theorists only play right into the terrorists hands by trying to make us afraid of our own government. My question to them is simple: If our politicians are so supremely intelligent as to have planned all this perfectly, then why make it so “obvious” to you all that it was a controlled demolition? Seems to me that leaving all that evidence behind for you to find kinda disproves their “crafty, evil plot.”
— Dan Haskell · Jan 20, 11:17 AM · #
Roy,
Please check your facts.
You say “NIST examined the possibility of explosives, and ruled it out…”
The reality is that NIST never actually tested for explosives, although you are correct, they did rule it out. Doesn’t seem very scientific to me – does it to you?
And in coming up with their theory on how WTC7 fell, they did not actually examine any of the steel from the building. Further, they have refused to share their computer models, or what information they used to create them with any outside scientists for the purpose of peer review. Doesn’t seem very scientific to me – does it to you?
In your first paragraph you talk about “truthers” “maintaining their own laws of nature independent of those known to scientist and engineers.”
What scientists and engineers are to talking about? There is quite a list who would disagree with you – Sir Isaac Newton being the first on the list of those including Dr. Stephen Jones, Dr. Neils Harrit, Richard Gage AIA just to name a few. I read your article and you make what sounds like logical arguments, however they are based in fact – only if you believe the official reports to be factual. Thus you are able to say for example – NIST found no evidence of explosives in WTC7, because that is what there report says. What they nor you do not say is that well – NIST NEVER DID TEST OR INVESTIGATE FOR INCENDIARIES.
You keep mentioning how “brittle” the tempered steel becomes when it is exposed to heat – however you don’t acknowledge that NIST never actually tested the steel from WTC7 when they created their hypothesis that they later published as fact, NOR do you explain how the steel on 70 floors in one tower and 85+ floors in the other that WAS NOT HEATED by any fires, suddenly decided to act like steel that had. Although even if it had, it doesn’t explain how the building collapsed through the path of GREATEST resistance in nearly free-fall
— Joe Heller · May 29, 12:10 PM · #
The NIST examination of the explosive demolition hypothesis is discussed on their website. http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm Basically, once the failure is explained using conventional science and engineering, and with all the basics contrary to an explosion hypothesis (the buildings fell from the top down, there was no evidence of packing the building with explosives) then there is no good reason to spend time trying to justify strange reasons. Similarly, after an eclipse of the sun has been explained by the path of the moon, it makes no sense to look for evidence of gods or space ships to explain it. This seems quite humdrum, but it is the standard method for serious investigators.
NIST did examine the steel from the buildings, especially to verify its strength. Read the report.
What scientists and engineers maintain that liquid metal will solidify if it is not continually heated? Every one except Truthers. I’d say it’s definitive. If you believe that melting in a certain way, say by thermite, will keep it molten, then you are not a scientist or engineer, period.
Tempered steel is always brittle. In a true controlled demolition, the speed of collapse has nothing whatsoever to do with the explosives. It is a result of the structural dynamics. It would be the same regardless.
— Roy Latham · Jul 12, 05:03 PM · #
Standard procedure dictates that explosives should be tested for. The mass spectroscopy showed clear chemical composition consistent with thermite. There are various sources of empirical evidence that are inexplicable via NISTS theory, NIST chooses just to omit these. This is highly unscientific. Equally, their model of collapse gamed the parameter of the model. NIST refuses to test dust saying tests may not be conclusive. May not be conclusive. Its not clear what happened on 911, but it is clear that NIST deliberately omits information it does like, that it has chosen its best theory before evaluation of the evidence and is prepared to willingly do whatever it takes to try and make that theory work.
— Jim · Oct 12, 10:04 AM · #
The paper’s first author is Dr. Niels Harrit, a 37-year Professor of Chemistry at Copenhagen University in Denmark and an expert in Nano-chemistry, who says, “The official account put forth by NIST violates the fundamental laws of physics.”
Government and independent evidence corroborates Thermitic explosives used to bring down all three WTC Towers on 9/11. (sources 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
Over a thousand architects, engineers, academics, and high-ranking military officers, as well as hundreds of 9/11 firemen, survivors, and family members have challenged the government’s conspiracy theory. Twenty-five military officers call the official 9/11 story, “Impossible”, “Ludicrous”, “A well-organized cover-up”. Forty-one U.S. counter-terrorism and intelligence agency veterans challenge the official 9/11 account, calling it, “terribly flawed”, “laced with contradictions”, “a joke”, “a cover-up”.
The majority of 9/11 Commissioners now say that the government lied about 9/11, including its Chairman, Thomas Kean (Republican), Vice Chairman, Lee Hamilton (Democrat), and its Senior Legal Counsel, John Farmer, who states, “there was an agreement not to tell the truth.”
According to a scientific poll by New York Times & CBS News, only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11, while 81% think it is hiding something or mostly lying. CNN poll shows that 89% believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11.
— Joe · Apr 6, 09:12 PM · #
These comments are painful to read.
The contentions made against the original post have all been negated. You ‘truthers’ are now recycling arguments.
— Prince of Orrange · Apr 22, 01:33 PM · #